How to Motivate Others by Starting with Yourself

One of the toughest parts of a leader’s job, regardless of whether you’re leading a corporation, in the community or at home, is to motivate and develop the people on a team toward a common goal. gothamCulture’s Shawn Overcast talked with Moms That Lead podcast host Teri Schmidt about how it all starts with self-leadership. Shawn shares inspirational stories and practical strategies for helping those you choose to lead to excel beyond their expectations by starting with your own self-reflection. Shawn and Teri discuss the application of those strategies to leadership at work, in the community, and, perhaps most importantly, at home.

Episode 18: How to Motivate Others by Starting with Yourself

High-Potential Programs Can Help Some Employees And Hurt Others. Here’s How We Can Design A Fairer System

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Companies invest in high potential programs with the goal of developing their star employees into future leaders. As exciting as these programs seem, poorly designed versions of them might cause more harm than good. While there is no secret recipe for a high potential program, here are three ideas to keep in mind when designing your company’s program to ensure it is effective and fair:

1. Companies that invest in high potential programs financially outperform their competitors.1

High potential programs sit in talent management, a practice that focuses on identifying and developing the ‘A players’— those who have the highest leadership potential and are of great interest to companies — with the potential to fill future leadership roles.2 This segmentation of the workforce allows companies to achieve their business objectives and motivates those labeled as high potential A players to strive and thrive. After tracking 300 organizations across 31 countries over 7 years, researchers found that investment in high potential programs correlated with better financial performance.1

These programs are not faultless, however. Regardless of intention, high potential programs can alienate the B players who make 80-85% of the workforce,3 leading to demotivation, a decrease in productivity and engagement,4 and even at times, higher turnover.5

2. The risk is worth the outcome if the high potential program is robust and grounded in science

Talent management experts need to design programs that clearly outline the variables that make a candidate ‘high potential’ if these programs are to succeed. Strong programs use evidence-based frameworks that can define, identify, and develop potential. Companies risk falling into the trap of misidentifying high potentials and losing future leaders if they identify the wrong candidates

3. The Leadership Potential Blueprint outlines key variables you can use to build an effective high potential program

The Leadership Potential Blueprint is a framework used by organizations to develop their own talent management strategies and make critical decisions about talent.2

This framework focuses on a handful of variables that predict potential. These elements can identify (and develop) the ‘A players’. The framework consists of three dimensions, each containing two variables, organized from the most stable to the most changeable skills and abilities.

A) Foundational dimension: Personality & Cognition

The foundational dimensions consist of the two variables that are unlikely to change — personality characteristics and cognitive capabilities.

Personality characteristics are important to consider. They can shed light on a key aspect of leadership: How does this person interact with and influence others? Some of these characteristics are social and interpersonal skills, assertiveness, dominance, maturity, emotional self-control, and resilience.

Cognitive capabilities predict performance6 and, given their stability, can be great metrics for identifying high potential employees. Leaders who address the daily challenges of running a business need strong cognitive capabilities. These include intelligence, strategic, conceptual thinking, and the ability to deal with ambiguity and complexity.

B) Growth dimension: Learning & Motivation

The growth dimension consists of learning and motivation. These skills are the less stable, more developable elements that reflect an individual’s willingness to learn from new experiences.

In an ever-changing world where businesses and markets are in continuous flux, it is crucial for leaders to have (and use) key learning skills. As you identify high potential candidates, stay on the lookout for candidates who are adaptable, open to feedback, agile, growth-oriented, and eager to learn. Once identified, work on developing them further. Ensure your high potential program offers experiences, assignments, and training that challenge your candidates and nurture these skills.

Leaders are expected to motivate their constituents, so naturally, they themselves need to be motivated. Candidates who have motivational skills can achieve personal and organizational success. In the search for your A players, keep a lookout for whether or not candidates have drive, energy, ambition, a willingness to take risks, and a desire for achievement.

C) Career dimension: Leadership & Functional Skills

Finally, the career dimension comprises the variables that are the easiest to influence and develop — leadership skills and functional skills.

Leadership skills refer to an individual’s ability to manage, motivate, inspire, and develop others. As the name shows, leadership skills are critical for being an effective leader. While some candidates might have stronger dispositions for these leadership skills than others, they are developable. Therefore, high potential programs can foster leadership qualities amongst future leaders, especially if candidates get a head start.

Functional or technical skills refer to an individual’s possession of specialized and generalized business expertise and knowledge. Like leadership skills, they can be taught. The specifics of these skills vary across companies, teams, and roles — when you identify and develop high potentials using this variable, it is important to ask: ‘the potential for what?’

The future of high potential programs

Despite the risks, it seems that high potential programs are here to stay. As companies start to design (or redesign) their programs, they should use evidence-based frameworks to ensure they’re assessing and building talent in ways that align with their strategic objectives. For example, PepsiCo, Eli Lilly, and Citibank use the Leadership Potential Blueprint as the underlying framework for their talent management practices. If your company is looking to spruce its high potential programs up with more rigor and robustness, the Leadership Potential Blueprint is a great framework for identifying and developing your future leaders.

Attend to Others – Give Them the Gift of Yourself


I learn from every client.  One lesson in particular that comes to mind came from a young leader with whom I recently worked.

My client was extremely curious about how others saw her.  She worked hard at becoming aware of her own well-developed sides and those she discerned might be less developed.  She was a veritable sponge for learning!

Her growth as a leader was amazing, as she honed skills at dealing with others who might have different styles and perspectives, recognizing her own resistance to change and then setting judgment aside, using the lens of learning and appreciation for others. She worked hard in listening and in taking the time to pause.  It was a remarkable journey to watch.

As significant as her progress was, though, it was surpassed by something deeper and more meaningful for her: The idea of connection with others.  It came in a realization to my client one day as she spoke about the coaching experience.  I asked her what meant the most to her.  She answered,

“I’m very busy as a leader and people seldom take the time to just ask, ‘How are you?’ and ‘What’s on your mind?’

The gift you gave to me each session was that you asked me those questions and so many more.  And then you just listened.  You allowed me to explore who I am and how I want to grow.”

As a coach, I nodded and smiled – I appreciated her kind comment.   And I asked just one more question:

“And what did you learn from that experience?”

My client’s profound response:  First, she paused and then she looked at me intently, and said, smiling,

“We all need someone to ask about us, and we all need someone to listen.  We need to give the gift of ourselves and attend to others.”

Such moments are so powerful for a client and her words can provide perspective for all of us.  So much of what we do as leaders is transactional, filled with strategy and the innumerable tasks we handle daily.  Sometimes we lose sight of the need to connect with others – and to remember that the relationship with our people is of paramount importance.  It precedes and indeed should supersede the tasks we handle.

Especially during these challenging times, each of us needs to have someone look at us, ask how we are, and then just give the gift of listening, with our ears, our eyes and our heart.  My client aptly called it “attending to others,” as the greatest gift we can give.

Think about leaders working at home today with no clear lines of demarcation between their abode and the workplace.  Many are trying to be playmates with their children and supervising their schoolwork. They are shopping and cooking and going non-stop.  The stresses are greater than they have been for any of us in recent memory.

We can’t necessarily solve such issues for our people.  And most people don’t really expect us to be able to do so.  We all need to just ask the simplest of questions:

“How are you today?  And what’s on your mind?”

And then just listen. With our eyes, our ears, and our hearts.


This article originally appeared on

The Leader as a “Heat Sink”

In everything from soldering circuit boards to dissipating the thermal energy created by computer server farms, the technological world appreciates the value of a “heat sink.”  Without heat sinks, we would have far more component hiccups or even outright failures.

Heat sinks serve a vital purpose in dissipating energy and allowing a device to function.

But what happens when the leader becomes the metaphorical “heat sink,” taking in all or most of the heat and energy that is emanated from the crisis, the organization and the people with whom he or she is dealing?

Coaching women and men these past four months, I have found myself using this heat sink metaphor often  – inviting the leaders who deal with the current crisis to think about the human emotion and “heat” that has been built up on their teams and themselves.  Some of the calmest and most centered individuals I know today are now struggling as never before, with the weighty issues and unknowns facing their personal and professional world.  And the “heat” from that often finds its way into a ready conduit – the leader himself.  Some call it stress, others call it workload.  My clients readily appreciate the metaphor of “heat.”

Where does that energy go once it enters the psyche of the individual?  Under “normal” (a word we often yearn for now), it is readily dissipated after work with a person’s family, or at places like the gym or the tennis court.  It is also diminished because, regardless of workload, there is a certain sine wave to normal work life, with ebbs and flows that allow us to subsume the energy that is built up as a result of events in the workplace.

Today is different.  A 24-hour leadership cycle has emerged and the workplace has shifted to home, with most leaders having no clear delineation between their professional roles and their experience as parents, spouses, and caregivers.  The hours are longer, the stresses of communication more challenging and the issues our people face are often new to everyone – including the leader.  As a consequence, there is little frame of reference and a sort of normlessness can permeate our existence, bringing emotions and so much real “heat,” that we find ourselves reacting in ways we would have never imagined.

And sometimes the buildup within is so powerful that we begin to withdraw from others, including our closest colleagues, subordinates, friends and personal relationships, perhaps because we feel that there is nothing left for us to give.  And when we close down in that way, we can occasionally begin to write narratives about ourselves and others that might not reflect the realities we face.  We might even begin to “project” feelings, words, or what we think are the intentions of others, that are not accurate.  We thus limit or foreclose the ability of meeting others where they are.

As you read these words they may resonate with you.  If they do, take heart in the fact that you are not alone.  In all of my clients I see these times of crisis etched in their faces and hear it in their words.  My role is to help them “unpack” those experiences through questions that are meant to evoke awareness of what they are going through.

Awareness is the key for all of us.  If you can name it, you can begin to tame what is in your head and in your heart.  And by being aware that you have become a “heat sink,” you have made the first step in gaining perspective and understanding of what you are experiencing.

Reaching out to everyone in your life and exploring that awareness is your most powerful tool.  From there you can consider actions that will reduce the heat or help subsume it – and even see it for what it is and recognize that it might not even be heat that you need to take in.  When you reach out to others you can share your perspectives and, by doing so, realize that the realities we all face as individuals alone are really just a part of the larger reality in today’s world.

And, most importantly, you can help others realize that the heat they feel themselves is very real and universally felt.

This article originally appeared on

The Two Best Bosses You’ll Ever Have – Continuing Lessons From My First Sergeant

It seems like a lifetime ago that I was sitting with another G.I., commenting about my commander in the military.  The animated discussion I was engaged in was with a non-commissioned officer – a “NCO” –  commiserating about actions my commander had taken and how I wish he could somehow be different.

The NCO, a U.S. Army E-8, listened intently and heard my complaints – and my venting – for long minutes.  When I finally stopped, he simply smiled and asked,

“So who are the two best bosses you’ll ever have in your career?”

Non-plussed by the question, I sat there in silence, not really knowing what to say.  By then I had spent enough time in the Army, though, to realize that a senior NCO draws on a lifetime of experience leading people.  For those open to learning, top sergeants are always ready to provide perspectives, often in the form of parables or aphorisms.

The First Sergeant let his question sink in and then restated the question more succinctly:

“Who are the two best bosses you’ll ever have?”

As he continued to smile, he provided an ample pause for thought and then slowly offered this answer:

“Think about this, it’s simple:

The guy who just left and the one who’s coming next.

We hardly ever see the current boss as the person who meets all of our needs.”

My first reaction was that the first sergeant was playing games with me.  I laughed and told him that it didn’t make sense.  He grinned and just stared back, challenging me to think about what I had just heard. He slowly sipped on the black coffee contained in his favorite mug, stained from years of use, patiently letting his message sink in.

The meaning of that first sergeant’s message came to me slowly that day.  And I’ve often thought about it in the years since.  Our perspective as human beings is so often shaped so much by the wish of what we really want or need that we don’t take the time to appreciate what we have.  And we spend so much time wanting our boss to change (or our co-worker, our friend or even our significant other) that we don’t realize that while we can’t change others, we can always change how we react to them.  We can become so hardened in our position that eventually we come to believe that the best solution is that the boss simply “should” change.

I know that many readers have examples of “yes, but” that includes their own “impossible bosses,” who make life miserable for others or just don’t know how to lead.  There are indeed situations that may well be untenable.  In such cases, there are limited options for a person, including suffering through it or, if possible, leaving the job.

And yet so often it is valuable to realize that the boss has his or her own capabilities, just as we do.  And his or her styles might well work for most people.  Understanding how our boss approaches the world is indeed the most important step we can take.  To do that, we must first “meet them where they are.”  That involves making human contact and connection with the coworker who happens to be your boss.  And that may well be the most difficult step, especially if we are fundamentally different in our approaches to the workplace and the communication inherent in it.

An important thing to remember is that we can feel resistance in ourselves when someone is different from us.  That resistance must be met with curiosity about what we are truly feeling.  By naming it – be it discomfort with communication styles or even values – we can help ourselves name that discomfort.  And understanding that the boss can feel resistance towards you is of equal importance.  Again, curiosity is our best approach to lean into the resistance we think we feel from the boss.

I have worked with clients who avoid their supervisor or manager because they feel their boss doesn’t understand them.  Initially, this might help us cope, but it can’t help us understand how we can change the way we react to them.  It’s best to lean into what we feel as resistance and use curiosity as our best tool in such situations.  Think carefully about how you word questions to anyone and especially your boss.  The open-ended “What communication style works best for you?” opens up possibilities, while something binary like, “You don’t like my emails do you?” can foreclose any connection or growth.  So too, the statement “I’d value time with you,” is an opening to a larger conversation that can be filled with development of the relationship.

There will always be bosses with whom you just “click.”  And there will be others where you have to work hard in establishing how you react to them.  My guess, based on that old first sergeant’s advice, is that one of those will be the best boss you ever had.  It’s your choice.

This article originally appeared on


Going Slow To Go Fast

Going Fast to Go Slow

In a recent discussion with one of my colleagues, she compared the work she is doing with teams to rebooting her computer. Every once in a while, we realize that we have opened so many files, folders, web pages, and software programs in the course of our work and life that things just aren’t operating as smoothly and quickly as we might expect. To get things back in working order, we need to carve out some time to reboot- to close everything out and to start over. To go slow in order to go fast again.


When this happens, and it happens to all of us, you have a couple of options. First, you can ignore it and muddle through, hoping to avoid the dreaded “blue screen of death”. You can shut the computer down and walk away. Or, you can take a pause, reboot, and clear the decks of all of those things that are no longer serving you well.

Rebooting your team.

This counter-intuitive notion resonated with me quite deeply. As a business owner and the leader of multiple teams navigating through the disruptions of the last few months, I have the relentless voice in my head telling me to be decisive. To move, to execute, to push through. But what if this self-imposed reaction to all of the “chatter” in my life wasn’t something to try to simply push through but, rather, they were signals that it was time to reboot?

What if the fastest and most effective way to get to speed was to slow things down? What if we pressed pause as a team, assessed the current operating context, and worked together to realign in order to enable us to work faster in the long run?

What does a reboot take?

Realigning or rebooting a team takes time and effort and requires bringing people together to engage in sense-making and dialogue. This may mean a series of shorter, video-based, meetings over the course of several weeks, or months, that help your team reset for success in this next chapter.

When preparing to reboot your team there are few critical areas that you should consider in order to ensure that you can move forward with clarity and alignment.


In any change, it is important for teams to reassess their purpose to ensure that it is still relevant to their internal as well as the external circumstances. Gather your team and ‘meet the moment.’ Capture where you are and recalibrate your collective purpose as a team in response to the changes.


The shift of how work gets done between people on a team, such as a shift to remote work and virtual teaming, can trigger some uncertainty around whether or not people are getting the work done and holding themselves mutually accountable to results. Acknowledge these issues and engage the team in agreeing on ways to demonstrate transparency and accountability.


In order to fulfill a team’s purpose, members need to have the right knowledge and skills to do so. Ask your team to reflect on their collective skills and knowledge, and to be creative with how they are leveraged. This is a great way to acknowledge and celebrate the many gifts the individuals on your team can bring to the table.

James Sasser, CEO and President of federal government contractor GovStrive describes some of the unique bridging and relationship-building challenges that his clients working through which are especially challenging during the current COVID pandemic- “We are working with large federal agencies that are faced with the need to onboard new hires remotely, and these employees not only need job-specific training, but also want to establish personal relationships with their supervisors and peers and desire to learn more about the agency mission, culture, and values, so they can be productive on day one.”


Team collaboration can feel very different in person than it would online. Without properly revisiting what virtual collaboration might look like for a team, members can feel more siloed, and efficiency can drop. Have your team look into various collaboration tools and techniques and bring their recommendations to your next meeting.

“Our clients have been forced to accelerate adoption of virtual technologies. Many of our clients have been pleasantly surprised by how well employees have embraced virtual collaboration through video platforms,” says Clyde Thompson, Senior Vice President at GovStrive. “We’ve worked with our clients to develop remote webinars and engagement platforms for new hires and have deployed personal messaging campaigns that develop and enhance the employee-supervisor relationship well before the new hire’s first day, so they feel like they’re part of the team at the onset of their new job,” adds GovStrive’s Director of Marketing and Change Management, Joe Abusamra.


Even in real time, managing conflict can be a daunting task that people might feel is better avoided. In virtual work, the ability to identify let alone address conflict becomes even more difficult. Borrowing from the research on delivering feedback, conflict is best managed when it is timely. And although uncomfortable, conflict doesn’t have to be feared or negative.


There will always be obstacles that stand in the way of any successful change, whether there are planned or unplanned disruptions. Invite your team to reflect on what they have learned through their experience of this disruption/pandemic, and to share any potential roadblocks they envision encountering as the team continues to work together. Then have the team collaborate to design a plan to overcome them.

Michelle Boullion PhD, Director of Executive Education at Louisiana State University’s Ourso College of Business, suggests that leaders must, “Always be thinking like a futurist.” As many business leaders continue to struggle to effectively adapt to working remotely Dr. Boullion advises that leaders can pave a clear path forward by, “Getting out of the mindset that employees can’t be trained to work remotely.” Though it may be difficult to make this change in such a dramatic and all-encompassing way as a result of COVID, there are lessons that leaders can take from this experience. What is the next challenge your organization may face as things evolve around us? How can you prepare your teams to be ready to adapt quickly to whatever the future holds?

Reboot coaching.

These tips make sense, but they can be a bit overwhelming to think about as you navigate the day-to-day requirements of your work environment. In order to organize and expedite the realignment process, it may be helpful to obtain the guidance of someone who can help organize the effort. Not only does this allow for you to manage all of the balls that are in the air at one time but it affords you with the opportunity to be an active participant in the process with your team as opposed to having to balance the roles of participant and facilitator. Your coach can be a respected peer or colleague, an HR business partner, or an external resource. Whatever path you choose, it is essential that you identify a coach who has the facilitation skills necessary to productively navigate some potentially challenging and emotionally charged discussions.

Regardless of what sector or industry you may be in, the events of the last few months have undoubtedly created some dynamic disruption to the way you get things done. Before diving headlong into the breach and relying on what worked in the past to get you through the current situation, it may be an opportune time to consider slowing things down, reevaluating the current operating environment, and realigning your team to move forward with clarity and purpose.

This article originally appeared on

Podcast: Going Slow to Go Fast

In this episode, Chris Cancialosi talks with gothamCulture’s Shawn Overcast about her experience realigning teams after disruptive events. Like those of us who keep way too many applications open on our computers for too long, slowing our ability to get things done, sometimes our teams can experience the same effect when grappling with mounting priorities and disruption. When that happens, it may be time to reboot.

Show notes: Shawn references an interview with Storied CEO Michael Margolis titled Storytelling in the Age of Disruption

Weeds and Wishes

Photo by Saad Chaudhry on Unsplash

Over the weekend I heard the story of a mom who, when asked what moments were bringing her joy as she endured the COVID-19 stay at home orders, shared a photo of her young daughter blowing the top off of a dandelion in their backyard. The mom, according to the story, found herself lost in the pure enjoyment of her child as they watched the seeds spread in the wind. And, just for a moment, she was able to put aside the impacts physical distancing and isolation have had on her and her family.

In reflecting about the experience, she recalled that only a few days before, she and her husband were marveling at their lovely, weed-free lawn. Now with her daughter spreading hundreds of dandelion seeds, she watched as the dream of a weed-free lawn drifted away and was struck by the contrast in perspectives. For her, the dandelions represented an intrusive weed but, for her child, those same weeds offered the promise of a wish.

The idea of weeds and wishes really stood out to me in reflecting on my journey as a leader both at home and in the “office.” As we move beyond our current circumstances, I think the ability to see things from different perspectives will be the hallmark of successful leaders in the new world of work. And, if I’m honest with myself, I often see only my weeds rather than the wishes of others. If you, like me, need to grow in this area, here are some key areas to focus your personal development energy.

Empathy – A 2015 research study by DDI found that empathy was the most critical driver of overall performance in every aspect they explored. And, in 2019 Business Solver’s State of Workplace Empathy report suggests that empathy matters now more than ever – a statement that’s likely even more true with the pandemic. For a leader, having the ability to step into someone else’s shoes and truly appreciate their perspective is critical to building an inclusive and engaging workplace. Increasing your capability to empathize with others is possible with practice. Here you can find a few easy practices that will help increase your empathy so you are able to more readily see other people’s perspectives.

Humility – The first key to seeing things from another’s perspective is creating an environment where they will share. Authentic humility is a necessary precursor for creating psychological safety that enables people to share different points of view and drive creativity. When leaders understand the limits of their expertise and are truly open to challenge, their teams are willing to risk sharing different perspectives. But, as humans, we tend to be overconfident in what we know or the transferability of our knowledge base to new areas. If you don’t believe me, just check out how many pandemic experts there are on Twitter! So, if you want to build a culture where people are willing to let you see when they have a different perspective, you’ll need to be genuinely humble. Fortunately, like empathy, humility is something you can work on. If you want to practice more genuine humility, here are a few quick tips:

  1. Spend time listening to others. Demonstrate that you value them by investing your time in hearing what matters to them most.
  2. Ask for help when you need it. Successfully achieving things through stubborn self-reliance can easily become a form of pride. While its good to be confident in your ability to solve problems, being willing to ask for help is a good way to demonstrate that you know the value others can add through their unique capabilities.
  3. Practice self-reflection. Take time to critically review your interactions, the language you use, and how you approach working with others.

Appreciation – Last year Paul White published a great GovLoop article on why employee recognition programs aren’t working. In it, he encourages leaders to shift from recognition to authentic appreciation. Among other things, White notes that authentic appreciation focuses on performance plus the person’s intrinsic value. By expressing appreciation, leaders acknowledge the unique capabilities of each individual and the value that those capabilities create for the team and the organization. Practicing authentic appreciation requires leaders to look more closely at what their team members are accomplishing. And to validate the underlying capabilities each individual brings to the team. This careful examination leads to better understanding and an improved ability to recognize when someone may hold a differing point of view.

I’ve heard a lot of hopeful predictions about the lasting effects of the pandemic on making work more human. And, I sincerely believe that we’re experiencing a shift in ways of leading that will continue to acknowledge the bottom-line benefits of human-centered organizational cultures. If you want to hone your capabilities to lead in this new era of work, starting with empathy, humility, and recognition are great first steps.

This article originally appeared on

The Path to Reopening: Leadership in Times of Crisis

In the past two months, I have had the opportunity to witness teams facing the most challenging situations they have ever experienced. It is an honor to be working with such remarkable leaders during these times, be they involved with companies, governmental groups, or non-profit organizations.

Daily, I learn how they regularly meet the challenges of this crisis.  The teams and their leaders do it with ingenuity, caring, and a focus on problem-solving and learning.  While each story is unique, there is a remarkable consistency in how the best leaders and the strongest teams approach the situations they are now facing.

The path to reopening is a subject that is both fraught with emotion and shaded with a multitude of opinions.  The teams that meet the challenges seek to embrace and understand those aspects of the crisis and then bring to bear tools that serve them in any circumstance. Read More…

Podcast: Storytelling in the Age of Disruption

In this episode, Shawn Overcast interviews Michael Margolis, CEO of Storied, a strategic messaging firm that specializes in the story of disruption and innovation. He is also the author of a new book titled Story 10x: Turn the Impossible Into the Inevitable.

Organizations in every industry, across the globe, are experiencing perhaps the greatest disruption of our time, with the pandemic COVID-19. We haven’t experienced a public health or economic disruption of this scale in our lifetimes. And yet, (strike this – over the past 20 years), individuals and the organizations that we work in have been no stranger to the experience of serial disruptions. Whether that be the way (italicize to emphasize these words) we work – through advancements in technology, where we work – with the continued expansion of globalization, and with whom we work – and the growing workforce demographic to include 3-4 generations working side-by-side. Michael discusses strategies for how leaders can “meet the moment” and evolve their narrative. In this podcast, we learn practical ways to move our teams and organizations from the story of the past to the story of the future, by first recognizing and reflecting on what comes with the place of ‘no story’ – the place of in between.

Released: May 20, 2020